Frankenwheel: 17" rear wheel on CX500 - Page 6
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Thread: Frankenwheel: 17" rear wheel on CX500

  1. #51
    Member jhovel's Avatar
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    I'm nervous about commenting, because I don't want to offend anyone. The wheel assembly using bolts that rely on oversize re-drilled holes seems not good practice to me, although others have also done it successfully.
    I also changed rims on my bike, a CX650Euro, using a VF750 rear rim for their extra width. I used M7 bolt without thread for the entire distance through the assembly and turned special shoulders on both bolts nuts and bolts to match the exact shape of the original rivets. These bolts were a tight fit in the original holes and the wheel came out dead true first go. I used 'metalloc' nuts and loktite for the entire assembly to recreate the original rigidity and safety.
    But that's just me. Others have different views of safety margins and I keep my fingers crossed that all of them be safe.

    PS: Murray, your tone of writing is fine by me. I don't recall you ever using any rude phrases. Challenges me to think ahead further - as in "How will Murray critique this?" Fortunately my engineering interests and continuing reading generally has me agreeing with Murray's views (not always).
    Any social contents correction directed at any specific person needs to go via PM, not a public forum please.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    I'm nervous about commenting, because I don't want to offend anyone. The wheel assembly using bolts that rely on oversize re-drilled holes seems not good practice to me, although others have also done it successfully.
    I also changed rims on my bike, a CX650Euro, using a VF750 rear rim for their extra width. I used M7 bolt without thread for the entire distance through the assembly and turned special shoulders on both bolts nuts and bolts to match the exact shape of the original rivets. These bolts were a tight fit in the original holes and the wheel came out dead true first go. I used 'metalloc' nuts and loktite for the entire assembly to recreate the original rigidity and safety.
    But that's just me. Others have different views of safety margins and I keep my fingers crossed that all of them be safe.

    PS: Murray, your tone of writing is fine by me. I don't recall you ever using any rude phrases. Challenges me to think ahead further - as in "How will Murray critique this?" Fortunately my engineering interests and continuing reading generally has me agreeing with Murray's views (not always).
    Any social contents correction directed at any specific person needs to go via PM, not a public forum please.
    It's very hard to offend with constructive criticism. The content is never the problem just the delivery of it.

    Someone with more expertise can probably chime in here but I think it's mostly about the clamping pressure you can exert on the joint so the extra 1mm drilled out of the rim I don't believe should make any difference to the overall strength of the joint. I could be wrong but I believe with an 8.8 grade M8 the joint should end up stronger overall despite the extra material being removed.

    I also did a quick search and I couldn't locate any 8.8 grade M7 bolts. Did you manage to find those for your build? They might be a specialty item or something.

    EDIT: I decided to do some reading and according to my research 70-90% of the forces in the type of bolt setup are applying the clamping pressure and the rest goes through the bolt itself.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint
    Last edited by Son of eevil; 05-08-2017 at 10:25 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Part 2:

    Sorry this took so long, I was waiting on a couple of parts and then the spare time to do it!

    Here we go.

    AS it turns out 25mm 8.8 bolts don't exist I tried 4 or 5 manufacturers and had 3 orders placed and I ended up receiving what were essentially 25mm set screws. The reason for this is that the bolts are made to a standard where the thread length is 2.5x the diamter so on an M8 (8mm) nut you will have at minimum 20mm of threaded bolt. Apparently it is not economical to produce a bolt with the remaining 5mm of shank. The closest I was able to get was a 40MM bolt with a 15mm shank. I was advised that the best procedure would be the cut these down to the appropriate length.

    Mounted my spokes up and full threaded through a bolt to proper torque spec and measured what was left on the protuding side using a washer on each side of the bolt.

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    This left me with 14mm on the otherside, needing to make sure that there was at least 2 full intact thread lengths on the outside I opted to lop off on the remaining 13MM leaving me with 27MM bolt 15 mm of shank and 12 MM of threaded bolt.

    I found that using 2 M8 nuts screwed all the way down to the shank then clamped into my vice actually left the perfect amount of material to cut off and gave me a really straight edge to cut against.



    I did my first bolt with a hacksaw but afterwards decided using my pneumatic cut off tool was a much faster and easier way to trim the bolts and left a nicer finished surface behind.



    The process here is to screw your nuts on make your cut then back your nuts off. The nuts server a triplicate purpose:
    1. They give you extra surface area to grip in your vice
    2. They give you a nice straight surface to cut against and server to mark where you cut also
    3. When you've done your cut you can back the nut off and it will help you clean up your thread.



    Once you've made your cut and taken off your bolts inspect your thread you may want to grab a file and tidy them up, run your bolt on and off a few to times to make sure it's in good order.

    Airing on the side of caution I opted not to count the first thread as being genuine and there for had enough left for 2 full threads plus the one I cut against protuding from the bolt.



    Here are a few bolts cut to length but please note, threads had not get been cleaned you can still see some burrs on the end.



    Once you have all your bolts cut, mount up all your spokes and hubs and tighten everything just tight enough that there is no movement.

    In my haste I neglected to mark my my spokes and the location they came from. In the end this did not end up mattering for me as my wheel was within spec regardless of the location of the spokes. however this does not mean you will also be lucky I recommend etching a marking into the underside of the spokes where it contacts the outside rim and marking the RIM in the same fashion. A simple 1A/1B 2A/2B system would work well in these locations as the they will be hidden when you bolt the spokes back up to the rim.

    The likely hood is that all of these spokes are identical and pressed on a production line so it won't matter what their location is. Where may get into trouble is if your wheel has ever been damaged and retrued in which case your spoke location will be very specific.

    In short. Mark your damn spokes, don't count on being lucky.

    Note: The maximum torque specs for an M8 8.8 grade bolt is 25nm. Any tighter then this and you will irreparably damage your bolt I chose to torque my bolts to 90% of their maximum rounding down which gives you 22nm

    When torqueing your bolts you want to do alternate across your wheel in a star pattern. Starting on one side, then going ~180 degrees to the other side and tightening the opposite bolt then 90 degrees back then 180 degrees until you've torqued every bolt then repeat your pattern again as some of the ones you've initially tightened will be out of spec and need tightening again.

    Once you've properly torqued all your bolts, go around each one and mark the nut against the thread using some paint (I used whiteout) you want to check these markings after your first couple of rides to check if the nuts have backed them selves off. Inspect as part of your regular maintenance after your first few checks if no movement is detected. (Suggested by edinlr)

    Once everything is torqued to spec it's time to check if your wheel is true (straight) by looking for axial and radial runout.

    Radial runout is your left > right wobble and axial is your top to bottom.

    Honda states no more than 2mm runout radial or axial is acceptable for these wheels. You can measure this most accurately using a dial gauge. However if you do not have one, you can set the wheel up and measure hte distance between the highest and lowest point to find your runout.

    I was lucky and found that despite my mixup with the spokes my wheel was within 2MM radially and axially without making an adjustments.

    Whether or not to true your wheel with or without a tyre is largely up to debate some recommend doing it WITH the tyre mounted others without and some recommend trueing without the tyre then trueing again with the tyre mounted on the rim.

    For this guide mainly because my tyre was already mounted I chose to true the wheel with the tyre mounted.

    I don't own a trueing stand so the method I used was to clamp the rear axle in my vice and use a right O-ring on both sides of the wheel to prevent it moving side to side while spinning and throwing out my measurements.

    Here is the trueing setup I used



    The basic jist of the dial gauge is to press it press it up against the side or the top of your rim and run a couple of full rotations and find your lowest spot, dial in your gauge so it reaches 0 at this point then rotate it and at a minimum any location that exceeds 2MM of runout will need to be adjusted. Please note, I have instructed you to look for the lowest point to set your gauge, if you measure from the otherwise you may find that this is simply a high spot on the otherside and you may need to adjust your spokes to pull it back in.

    As stated before I did not need to adjust my bolts as my rim was well within spec radially and axially, if you find you have radial runout loosen your bolt off and tighten from the side that is protuding, the theory is that this will pull it back in line. I cannot state if this will work in practice. The other option is to swap spokes until you are true.

    Also note, you will need to balance your wheel, this guide will not show you how to do that. There are plenty of guides you can find on line so I will not be reinventing the wheel here.
    Last edited by Son of eevil; 05-23-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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  5. #54
    OCR
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    Another way to clean the threads of the bolt is to remove your outer nut and then either file or grind a taper onto the end.
    Then remove the other nut to finalize cleaning the thread ends.

    This serves two purposes, it cleans the threads and removes burrs from the end of the bolt.
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  6. #55
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    I put a nut on the bolt to be cut and make the cut with a hacksaw. Then I wind the nut back away from the cut and grind the end flat on the fine stone on my bench grinder, then partially remove the nut to raise the burrs on the end of the cut bolt and wind the nut back again. This raises a few more burrs. I then grind these off again and wind the nut out and back in again raising another, but smaller burr. This time I chamfer the end of the bolt on the fine stone. Wind nut out and in again and check for burrs. If still present I chamfer again. If not, remove the nut and check that it winds back onto the bolt as it should.

    Finished.
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  7. #56
    OCR
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    It also helps to have a thread file to clean up any left over burrs.
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  8. #57
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    A lathe would make it much easier.... One of these days I will find one that I can afford but for now I still do it that way. I usually remove the nut to make the burr stand up, file it to a bevel and run a die onto it to clean the threads out.

    My one concern about cutting the bolts is that they are no longer plated on the ends. I would seriously consider buffing the ends to get them smooth and then setting up a small zinc plating tank to do the ends.
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  9. #58
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    Spray the cut end with silvagal. You won't be able to tell the difference and the bolt won't rust. I use it on all hardware that doesn't pass muster. Good for those crusty coolant pump cover bolts too.
    edinlr likes this.
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  10. #59
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    Is it durable? I have tried zinc paints in the past and wasn't impressed but maybe this Silvagal is different...
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  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidecar Bob View Post
    A lathe would make it much easier.... .
    Not really easier for these short screws.

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