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Thread: Project Turbo Salt Racer - 2017

  1. #11
    Senior Member edinlr's Avatar
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    The production class is P-PPB (production, pushrod, blown) and the record is 133.625. The modified class is M-PBG (modified -no fairing, pushrod, blown gas) is 131.298 and MPS-PBG (modified with streamlining - pushrod, blown, gas) is 136.997. There are a number of other classes, but this is kind of a summary of what I am looking at.

    Before anyone says I have had my turbo up to 135, let me tell you the speedos are very optimistic at high speed. Also at Bonneville, you are at 4200 feet of altitude and lose quite a bit of power even with a turbo. The math is (elevation x .03 x horsepower) / 1000, so you lose about 12 horsepower with a 100 horsepower motor at that altitude. Traction is another issue since you are running on dried, packed salt. This can vary from being like a dirt road to driving on the beach, ruts and all. On a runway course you can let lose right from the start, but on the salt you have to be much more controlled all of the way through.
    CX500C
    CX500T
    CX650E
    CX650T
    Hawk
    CB750 w/turbo
    RG500
    V-Max
    Kawasaki 750 Turbo
    Katana 1000
    Ducati 749R
    Screaming Eagle Road King
    CBR600F3
    Honda Metropolitan
    Ninja H2 1000
    & a dozen battery chargers

  2. #12
    Senior Member edinlr's Avatar
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    Just a quick update on the build. The first two shots show the new CP piston next to the stock 650 piston. They have 10:1 compression and have ceramic tops. Even with a slight dome, the new pistons are 4% lighter than stock. The third photo is the reground Web Cam camshaft. It has a bunch more lift and a bit more duration from stock. The last photo shows a comparison to one of JimL's big camshafts for a naturally aspirated race bike. This has a lot more duration and more lift than the turbo cam. My buddy Turbo Tim is coming into town to supervise the motor build. I hope to have things ready to run sometime in April.
    CX500C
    CX500T
    CX650E
    CX650T
    Hawk
    CB750 w/turbo
    RG500
    V-Max
    Kawasaki 750 Turbo
    Katana 1000
    Ducati 749R
    Screaming Eagle Road King
    CBR600F3
    Honda Metropolitan
    Ninja H2 1000
    & a dozen battery chargers

  3. #13
    OCR
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    Senior Member OCR's Avatar
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    Where are the wrist pin oil galleys on the new pistons?
    Are they on the side indent?
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    '79CX500C

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  5. #14
    Senior Member edinlr's Avatar
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    OCR the oil feed comes from the large holes on the sides, you can see them in the second picture. CP calls this double pin oilers. CP also uses a full groove around the pin oilers as opposed to a shoort groove on the Honda Art piston. Is it better than what Art pistons from the 80's had, I don't know? CP Carrillo is owned by Pankl, so there is no question to their engineering ability. This is the same oiling system that JimL used in his extreme CX builds from a few years ago and he did not have any oiling failures, so I have to assume this is adequate. This design also does not have all of the horizontal ports (holes) through the side like the stock piston did. I have no idea if this is good or bad. We have a lot of guys with engineering backgrounds who can explain this and maybe one of them can add to the conversation. You can also see that the pin bosses are moved in a bit and that the piston is not a full skirt like the original piston. This is a technology upgrade since the 80's and may have been beyond what the cast pistons could do at that time. If I ever do a custom rod and piston combo, I would like to try more of a dish piston design like the new bikes have and could probably take some more weight off of the assembly if the rod did not have to be too much longer.
    CX500C
    CX500T
    CX650E
    CX650T
    Hawk
    CB750 w/turbo
    RG500
    V-Max
    Kawasaki 750 Turbo
    Katana 1000
    Ducati 749R
    Screaming Eagle Road King
    CBR600F3
    Honda Metropolitan
    Ninja H2 1000
    & a dozen battery chargers

  6. #15
    Senior Member elrodicater's Avatar
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    Since the holes are in a recessed groove and only on the skirt approach, my theory is this was a Honda design to lubricate the skirt. I researched many images and this appears to be unique to Honda engines in this era. Just a theory...
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    ...Restoring my 12k CX500 turbo after 21 years of storage....

  7. #16
    Super Moderator ramprat06's Avatar
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    The theory may be right...... I had a hard time finding out what 77.79mm might look like.....Thread jack over....or....?

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  8. #17
    OCR
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    On the original design, it would help to reduce piston and cylinder wall wear resulting in out of round and loss of compression.
    You will find this added to pistons on new tech 2 strokes such as the Rotax E-Tec used by Ski-Doo.
    It allows for the use of less oil in the engine and less consumption too.
    E-Tec engines are getting 20mpg @ 6500 rpm and using 1 qt of oil to 20 gal of gas. ( something close to that )
    Past Master, Dryden Lodge #472
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    '79CX500C

    http://www.cx500forum.com/mediawiki



    we are all given sh*t in life, but some of us learn to turn it into fertilizer and grow from it, and some us try to fling it on others like monkeys.

  9. #18
    Senior Member elrodicater's Avatar
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    Edinir -

    1) I am interested in your custom pistons. Can your source build something similar but closer to stock? I would be interested in slightly increasing compression, about 8 to 1 and add the ceramic coating. Is this reasonable and what tuning if any would be required?

    2)Also, what valves are you planning on using? Reason I ask is I am considering have a stock set made to replace my factory soft/pitting ones. Wondering if anyone has sourced these recently..
    ...Restoring my 12k CX500 turbo after 21 years of storage....

  10. #19
    Senior Member edinlr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrodicater View Post
    Edinir -

    1) I am interested in your custom pistons. Can your source build something similar but closer to stock? I would be interested in slightly increasing compression, about 8 to 1 and add the ceramic coating. Is this reasonable and what tuning if any would be required?

    2)Also, what valves are you planning on using? Reason I ask is I am considering have a stock set made to replace my factory soft/pitting ones. Wondering if anyone has sourced these recently..

    1) We can visit on it, for cubic money they will build anything you want. Prices for two pistons were ridiculous and four pistons were much more economical. If you could find another person to by a pair, that would be your best bet. I am set up as a dealer now, but it would still probably be around $600 for two pistons and about $800 for four pistons. For the cost and labor, I would probably do 9:1 with ceramic to notice any benefit. No tuning is needed,just pop them in and run. Another option that has been done on both the 500 and the 650 is to use a stock n/a piston with about 9:1 compression instead of the turbo piston. This requires a bushing for the rod as the n/a uses a smaller diameter pin.

    2) I have stock valves on my race bike. When I explained my budget to my cylinder head guy, he said the stock valves were fine for that purpose. I have five angles on the valves and port work. The 500T exhaust valves are very fragile though and nearly every example I have seen are slightly bent. The 650 valves have all been much better. I have a bunch of custom heads that JimL had made for his n/a race bikes and they all have custom valves. I believe they were all done by Kibblewhite KPMI.us . These guys are pros and I would trust anything they make. We use the stock springs and again they are determined to work fine. A friend who races n/a 650's said that the 650 turbo inner springs are much better than any of the others. In any event they work fine. Bottom line, I think for the same money you should just spend the money on getting the valves and seats done by a race shop and have them set up the springs and be done. I also wonder if the valves were originally designed with leaded gas in mind and are not happy with the unleaded gas of today? I don't ride my race bikes on the street much and I always use leaded race gas, so there is no issue for me.
    CX500C
    CX500T
    CX650E
    CX650T
    Hawk
    CB750 w/turbo
    RG500
    V-Max
    Kawasaki 750 Turbo
    Katana 1000
    Ducati 749R
    Screaming Eagle Road King
    CBR600F3
    Honda Metropolitan
    Ninja H2 1000
    & a dozen battery chargers

  11. #20
    Senior Member Pim205GTI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edinlr View Post
    1) Another option that has been done on both the 500 and the 650 is to use a stock n/a piston with about 9:1 compression instead of the turbo piston. This requires a bushing for the rod as the n/a uses a smaller diameter pin.
    I have such a set available if anybody is interested. Almost brand new, somebody try to run a Turbo engine without a turbo, not a success
    Golden Boomerang Wheels Rock



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